Rules Clarifications

Decided we needed a thread here as well on TTN incase people arent checking both.

Basically as we learn the game and decisions are made, argued against and made again I want to make sure everyone is aware of them, plus I want to remember them myself!

Couple of things first (I am not gonna reference everything, if you think im wrong give me a heads up and I will explain),

1) snipers can choose targets, its in the shooting section

2)Sniper rifles, Anti mech rifles etc can take aimed shots

3) Main guns can choose targets as well

4) Snipers, werewolves etc activate independantly when they are not in coherency as they have loner. zombies dont have loner but they dont have to follow coherency...

5) Just do its allow you to do one action (move or shoot)

6) grenades *dont* need LOS

7) When we fire HE weapons the Armour Penetration Class drops, thus the template size drops to

8) if you cant see a target it cant be removed as a casualty, so if your german with LMG is the only model I can see then it dies, and it cant be replaced , however if it is a Weapons team (HMG/mortar) on one base dies its assumed the loader or whatever steps in

Gonna quote from SOTR forums to illustrate this as it might be contentious

1) a GONER result on a heavy weapon team of two or more models (HMG/LMG, etc.).

2) a GONER result on a single model squad upgrade like a Packed Vickers.

Scenario 1:

Where a GONER result is inflicted on the gunner that is part of a weapon team, the members of the team are trained to seamlessly and quickly take over the weapon. Remove one of the loader model(s), and continue play, subject to the ROF restrictions for loss of a weapon team member on page 45. However, once the last member of the original weapon team is a GONER, the heavy weapon is lost for gameplay purposes.

Scenario 2:

Where a GONER result is inflicted on a heavy weapon that is not crewed by two or more models, the heavy weapon is lost.


They really need to redo the rulebook tbh!

Here is hoping gameplay goes smoother!

I wish I had written down the rules queries that came up on Wednesday night...

Anyway from memory I have another couple of rules clarifications

1) Models hidden at start of game arent placed on board (In doomsday they reccomend you place chits under the terrain piece they are in). Tbh I think this is hassle, I would just suggest telling someone who isnt part of the game or simply making a mental note and playing as normal, I think we all trust eachother enough not to do anything dodgy!

2) This isnt stated explicitly anywere but I considered supressing the building were all the germans were in, asI could have supressed 4 squads with 2 smgs. That suggests somethings awry, either either the rules are size of buildings we use. This also goes for collapsing the massive buildings in the centre of the board. We kind of got there when we said we would collapse a segment of the wall and not the other, but we perhaps need to set it down as a house rule for the SoTR gamers in arkham (say for eg that you cant collapse a wall larger than 6 inches, cant supress an area beyond 6 inches or beyond one level...)

3) re collapsing buildings, I am all for it but in future removing masses of terrain from the board is prob not the best way to go about it, I say collapse the buildings and do dmg but leave the terrain as it is, if you look at all pics of stalingrad etc a lot of the tall buildings are still standing, the collapsing rule can just be viewed as as shifting rubble in the interior.

In the metagame I would also be concerned that on our city fight boards we would just run around shooting the buildings, since they are so tall when one of them collapses everyone in them dies. Well the soviets do anyway!

Also would like to suggest that we cant supress a building unless we "know" in game terms that something is there. This didnt come up on Wednesday but it will in future games since we all love snipers (if i activate first I could supress a building Iknow your snipers in even if he is hidden or something, it just comes down to good sportsmanship).

Sorry for rambling but writing it down will help me remember and also maybe get a wee debate going, as these are simply my opinions and not even set in stone!

Velsharoon wrote:I wish I had written down the rules queries that came up on Wednesday night...

Anyway from memory I have another couple of rules clarifications

1) Models hidden at start of game arent placed on board (In doomsday they reccomend you place chits under the terrain piece they are in). Tbh I think this is hassle, I would just suggest telling someone who isnt part of the game or simply making a mental note and playing as normal, I think we all trust eachother enough not to do anything dodgy!

2) This isnt stated explicitly anywere but I considered supressing the building were all the germans were in, asI could have supressed 4 squads with 2 smgs. That suggests somethings awry, either either the rules are size of buildings we use. This also goes for collapsing the massive buildings in the centre of the board. We kind of got there when we said we would collapse a segment of the wall and not the other, but we perhaps need to set it down as a house rule for the SoTR gamers in arkham (say for eg that you cant collapse a wall larger than 6 inches, cant supress an area beyond 6 inches or beyond one level...)



3) re collapsing buildings, I am all for it but in future removing masses of terrain from the board is prob not the best way to go about it, I say collapse the buildings and do dmg but leave the terrain as it is, if you look at all pics of stalingrad etc a lot of the tall buildings are still standing, the collapsing rule can just be viewed as as shifting rubble in the interior.

In the metagame I would also be concerned that on our city fight boards we would just run around shooting the buildings, since they are so tall when one of them collapses everyone in them dies. Well the soviets do anyway!

Also would like to suggest that we cant supress a building unless we "know" in game terms that something is there. This didnt come up on Wednesday but it will in future games since we all love snipers (if i activate first I could supress a building Iknow your snipers in even if he is hidden or something, it just comes down to good sportsmanship).

Sorry for rambling but writing it down will help me remember and also maybe get a wee debate going, as these are simply my opinions and not even set in stone!

Andrew i am in total agreement with the hidden models, we have plaid out enough sniper scenarios and the third party notification works for me.

If we attempt to apply some real live situations to the building collapse scenario i feel that downing a building on two rocket hits a bit of an exageration as the panzershreck was a armour piercing round and would have punched through the wall then exploded as opposed to taking the wall out completely, again this has been seen in Iraq where British and U.S light anti tank projectiles shot through some of the buildings and exploded well behing the target. well thats my feelings on the matter. More than willing to put it to the test on Wednesday night!

Again with the suppression of buildings housing hidden models, if you can't see it you have no legitimate reason to fire on it which would in effect give away your own position in a firefight.

If you try to suppress a hidden model you would effectively declare it was there when you roll against suppression, you can’t shoot something you can’t see so you can’t suppress it either in my mind.

Suppression fire means shooting at a piece of terrain that models are taking cover in, so multiple units would have to take a suppression test, but this doesn’t make sense if the units are far apart, I would suggest that you declare the suppression target unit, or split the fire between the units.

Building collapse, I think is correct as it would be technically possible to bring down a building with strategically placed hits, especially as buildings above 4 flours weren’t built the best back then and where probably a little unstable due to previous fighting. A panzerfaust explosion would certainly take out a wall or more, a couple of those and there is no more first floor.

Just because a panzerfaust shell can armour pierce thin WW2 armour doesn’t mean it will go through brick or concrete. It certainly wouldn’t have the propulsion to do it. They didn’t armour pierce in the true sense, the shells could pin through the thinner metal and the resulting explosion could kill the crew due to resulting pressure change and/or fiery death. That’s why later armour tried to be curved to deflect rather than absorb a hit.

Great post mike very informative. I guess we could just leave the rules as is and make sure we don't castle up in one tall building, or attack threw one! Wish they would finish the second book already tho, great system it just needs a bit of spit and polish.

Hidden targets

cant be targeted at all, you can target the terrian that they are hiding in, but things like woods, bushes need to be done with HE weopons and not AT, says in the rules that shots at a swamp would just fly over it.. ect ect

Building

as per the rules for building
you need to say before the game what each building is made of, to make it easy if your fighting in a city, all building are concret which is medium armour, this is also showen on the damge table.

as for dowing the building, if it has more than one level you can target the bottom and bring down the full building on a roll of 1/2, or the wall, if 2 walls go down the the building should be removed for rubble or a crater. i dont have my rule book at hand but it goes through it very well there, few games ive had it has done this way and its also the only way to down the USA snipers, as they cant be targeted with there cool camo.

hope this help, the key to building is to look at it and say about how strong they are before the game starts.

also guys, if you havent id say print out the ref sheets from the offical forums

cheers

Ironwolf

While your correct in everything you say its not the rules we have a problem with . Its just some of the rules are to vague and need to be house ruled (imho ofc) , for eg attacking hidden characters by shooting terrain is very much in the metagame and I don't agree with it, suppressing an entire building with two smgs is ludicrous etc . If you haven't played on arkhams city terrain its rather large and thus I feel it needs some further rules.

If for eg you have a twelve by twelve inch and four story high building do we really want it brought down by 2 rpgs! Or if we have a squad on each level do we want 2 smgs suppressing the entire terrain piece. Its fine if we stick to the rules but then it will just influence the use of smaller separate terrain pieces. The flip side ofc is people should spread out more and if they stick all their cherrys in one basket they deserve the consequences, but that's what the aim of this thread is for so we can spend more time gaming and less debating terrain or awkward situations that come up on wednesdays.

Don't worry we all have reference sheets and tokens etc, they are bloody necessary!

Velsharoon wrote:While your correct in everything you say its not the rules we have a problem with . Its just some of the rules are to vague and need to be house ruled (imho ofc) , for eg attacking hidden characters by shooting terrain is very much in the metagame and I don't agree with it, suppressing an entire building with two smgs is ludicrous etc . If you haven't played on arkhams city terrain its rather large and thus I feel it needs some further rules.

If for eg you have a twelve by twelve inch and four story high building do we really want it brought down by 2 rpgs! Or if we have a squad on each level do we want 2 smgs suppressing the entire terrain piece. Its fine if we stick to the rules but then it will just influence the use of smaller separate terrain pieces. The flip side ofc is people should spread out more and if they stick all their cherrys in one basket they deserve the consequences, but that's what the aim of this thread is for so we can spend more time gaming and less debating terrain or awkward situations that come up on wednesdays.

Don't worry we all have reference sheets and tokens etc, they are bloody necessary!

then suppresse unit by unit and you need 10shoots or more to be able to suppress so 2 smgs cant do it

terrain should always been talked about before a game, both players will not see each piece the sameway, as for buildings, if you can bring 2 walls down the why cant the building colapse? after all this is war.. i agree some of the rules are not well writen out is somecases and that they are spread out across the book but they are there, im all for house rules.. but with a offical tournament around the corner and every player still trying to get hold of the game, its in all our best intrested to play on the same sheet, as i hope some of the main land guys will come and play along side us.

im going to try and get down on wedsday night, get a few games with you guys, its better for me on a Thursday but not many people are intrested in them nights, shame :)

but keep the posts coming due its a nice read also makes me dig out my rule book and read it again :)

i do have to say that if we have any USA players they really should get them alien snipers :) because you put them in a building and have them hidden or not and becuase of there camo and hard cover they are on a -4 to hit, that means there on a roll of 8 to hit them, which you cant do :) so alway way to kill them is drop the building around them, or get with in 12" and killing them up close :) hope this little hint helps heheh

cheers

Ironwolf

I agree two players who haven't played before should talk about terrain, but since arkham is a club figured we would come up with a consensus! Don't worry about my posting it gives me something to look forward to in work lol. Don't know why I said 2 smgs heads away but you get the point.

I agree suppressing by squad seems like a logical choice and one that I would prefer, best get some more games in to playtest when I say house rules I don't mean trying to replace the rulebook, just in this case it merits discussion , and your totally right we all need to be singing from the same hymn sheet but grey areas are fair game!

then i think we should play it like this

building that are more than one story should be concret and medium armour
bunkers and pillar boxes as per rule book - heavy armour
farm house and cottages look like they are made of mostly wood and a bit of stone - losest building armour, think its light

as to suppressing a unit in a building, goes by LOS rules and suppression rules, so unit you can see the most ( best cover mod) and over 10 shot example 3 units in a building, you can see one unit with soft cover and 2 units with hard cover, you get to suppress the best one so the one with soft cover.

that sound ok?

cheers Ironwolf

Sounds reasonable to me What do you think Stephen/Trevor/others who have been playing?

Ironwolf wrote:then i think we should play it like this

building that are more than one story should be concret and medium armour
bunkers and pillar boxes as per rule book - heavy armour
farm house and cottages look like they are made of mostly wood and a bit of stone - losest building armour, think its light

as to suppressing a unit in a building, goes by LOS rules and suppression rules, so unit you can see the most ( best cover mod) and over 10 shot example 3 units in a building, you can see one unit with soft cover and 2 units with hard cover, you get to suppress the best one so the one with soft cover.

that sound ok?

cheers Ironwolf

It works for me Andrew

after reading the rules about supressing fire, i'll take back what i said, guess you can suppress more than one unit if there all in a building

Ironwolf wrote:after reading the rules about supressing fire, i'll take back what i said, guess you can suppress more than one unit if there all in a building

but the way you read it previously still seems a reasonable house rule...

true, as a house rule it can work

but if your playing in a city board, and play as per the rule book, it kind of stops you from putting all your units in one building and sitting there and not moving, think thats why they let you suppress a building and not just a unit

buy hay play house rules if you want, after all its your game and if it works sweet, but for next years GT you will be able to suppress a building no matter how many units are in it.

cheers

Ironwolf

Yeah I think Stephen and I will definitly be changing how it works , up to others what they want to do and ofc in the tournament it will be by the letter of the rules. Great victory today for mother russia at least, mostly because a squad of german drop troops couldnt arrive and contest an objective due to a the radio operator being killed. *worlds smalled violin*

So how is your third reich gaming going? Will you be making it to the minicon on the 20th of november?

my british are doing really well

they got beat on monday night by a first time player, i think i wrote him a really good german list lol, but was a fun game to play, very close untill my walking tiger1 mech broke a leg and lost his main gun.

im looking forward to the 8th Nov as my 3 wasps will arrive as well as the 3 other steel suits i need to finish off that unit :)

im down tonight if anyone wants a game